diff --git a/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/set_value.rs b/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/set_value.rs
index f5bb3550..f21c6375 100644
--- a/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/set_value.rs
+++ b/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/set_value.rs
@@ -221,7 +221,7 @@ impl StorageManager {
         // Make sure this value would actually be newer
         if let Some(last_value) = &last_get_result.opt_value {
             if value.value_data().seq() <= last_value.value_data().seq() {
-                // inbound value is older or equal sequence number than the one we have, just return the one we have
+                // inbound value is older than or equal to the sequence number that we have, just return the one we have
                 return Ok(NetworkResult::value(Some(last_value.clone())));
             }
         }
diff --git a/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/tasks/check_active_watches.rs b/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/tasks/check_active_watches.rs
index da49621a..2da4da81 100644
--- a/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/tasks/check_active_watches.rs
+++ b/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/tasks/check_active_watches.rs
@@ -59,7 +59,7 @@ impl StorageManager {
                             key: *k,
                             subkeys: ValueSubkeyRangeSet::new(),
                             count: 0,
-                            value: ValueData::default(),
+                            value: None,
                         })));
                     }
                 }
diff --git a/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/watch_value.rs b/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/watch_value.rs
index 1aa1b6f3..3db4a86d 100644
--- a/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/watch_value.rs
+++ b/veilid-core/src/storage_manager/watch_value.rs
@@ -232,7 +232,7 @@ impl StorageManager {
         watch_id: u64,
     ) -> VeilidAPIResult<()> {
         // Update local record store with new value
-        let (res, opt_update_callback) = {
+        let (is_value_seq_newer, opt_update_callback) = {
             let mut inner = self.lock().await?;
 
             // Don't process update if the record is closed
@@ -281,32 +281,56 @@ impl StorageManager {
             }
 
             // Set the local value
-            let res = if let Some(first_subkey) = subkeys.first() {
-                inner
-                    .handle_set_local_value(
-                        key,
-                        first_subkey,
-                        value.clone(),
-                        WatchUpdateMode::NoUpdate,
-                    )
-                    .await
-            } else {
-                VeilidAPIResult::Ok(())
-            };
+            let mut is_value_seq_newer = false;
+            if let Some(first_subkey) = subkeys.first() {
+                let last_get_result = inner
+                    .handle_get_local_value(key, first_subkey, false)
+                    .await?;
 
-            (res, inner.update_callback.clone())
+                // Make sure this value would actually be newer
+                is_value_seq_newer = true;
+                if let Some(last_value) = &last_get_result.opt_value {
+                    if value.value_data().seq() <= last_value.value_data().seq() {
+                        // inbound value is older than or equal to the sequence number that we have, just return the one we have
+                        is_value_seq_newer = false;
+                    }
+                }
+                if is_value_seq_newer {
+                    inner
+                        .handle_set_local_value(
+                            key,
+                            first_subkey,
+                            value.clone(),
+                            WatchUpdateMode::NoUpdate,
+                        )
+                        .await?;
+                }
+            }
+
+            (is_value_seq_newer, inner.update_callback.clone())
         };
 
         // Announce ValueChanged VeilidUpdate
-        if let Some(update_callback) = opt_update_callback {
-            update_callback(VeilidUpdate::ValueChange(Box::new(VeilidValueChange {
-                key,
-                subkeys,
-                count,
-                value: value.value_data().clone(),
-            })));
+        // * if the value in the update had a newer sequence number
+        // * if more than a single subkeys has changed
+        // * if the count was zero meaning cancelled
+
+        let do_update = is_value_seq_newer || subkeys.len() > 1 || count == 0;
+        if do_update {
+            if let Some(update_callback) = opt_update_callback {
+                update_callback(VeilidUpdate::ValueChange(Box::new(VeilidValueChange {
+                    key,
+                    subkeys,
+                    count,
+                    value: if is_value_seq_newer {
+                        Some(value.value_data().clone())
+                    } else {
+                        None
+                    },
+                })));
+            }
         }
 
-        res
+        Ok(())
     }
 }
diff --git a/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/tests/fixtures.rs b/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/tests/fixtures.rs
index c85e5109..df99841a 100644
--- a/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/tests/fixtures.rs
+++ b/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/tests/fixtures.rs
@@ -210,6 +210,6 @@ pub fn fix_veilidvaluechange() -> VeilidValueChange {
         key: fix_typedkey(),
         subkeys: ValueSubkeyRangeSet::new(),
         count: 5,
-        value: ValueData::new_with_seq(23, b"ValueData".to_vec(), fix_cryptokey()).unwrap(),
+        value: Some(ValueData::new_with_seq(23, b"ValueData".to_vec(), fix_cryptokey()).unwrap()),
     }
 }
diff --git a/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/types/veilid_state.rs b/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/types/veilid_state.rs
index b6947690..188ff71c 100644
--- a/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/types/veilid_state.rs
+++ b/veilid-core/src/veilid_api/types/veilid_state.rs
@@ -101,7 +101,7 @@ pub struct VeilidValueChange {
     pub key: TypedKey,
     pub subkeys: ValueSubkeyRangeSet,
     pub count: u32,
-    pub value: ValueData,
+    pub value: Option<ValueData>,
 }
 
 #[derive(Debug, Clone, PartialEq, Eq, Serialize, Deserialize, JsonSchema)]
diff --git a/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/fixtures.dart b/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/fixtures.dart
index 703e9a00..ef69e819 100644
--- a/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/fixtures.dart
+++ b/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/fixtures.dart
@@ -19,37 +19,50 @@ class DefaultFixture {
 
     assert(_veilidUpdateStream == null, 'should not set up fixture twice');
 
+    final ignoreLogTargetsStr =
+        // ignore: do_not_use_environment
+        const String.fromEnvironment('IGNORE_LOG_TARGETS').trim();
+    final ignoreLogTargets = ignoreLogTargetsStr.isEmpty
+        ? <String>[]
+        : ignoreLogTargetsStr.split(',').map((e) => e.trim()).toList();
+
     final Map<String, dynamic> platformConfigJson;
     if (kIsWeb) {
-      const platformConfig = VeilidWASMConfig(
+      final platformConfig = VeilidWASMConfig(
           logging: VeilidWASMConfigLogging(
               performance: VeilidWASMConfigLoggingPerformance(
                 enabled: true,
                 level: VeilidConfigLogLevel.debug,
                 logsInTimings: true,
                 logsInConsole: false,
+                ignoreLogTargets: ignoreLogTargets,
               ),
               api: VeilidWASMConfigLoggingApi(
                 enabled: true,
                 level: VeilidConfigLogLevel.info,
+                ignoreLogTargets: ignoreLogTargets,
               )));
       platformConfigJson = platformConfig.toJson();
     } else {
-      const platformConfig = VeilidFFIConfig(
+      final platformConfig = VeilidFFIConfig(
           logging: VeilidFFIConfigLogging(
               terminal: VeilidFFIConfigLoggingTerminal(
                 enabled: false,
                 level: VeilidConfigLogLevel.debug,
+                ignoreLogTargets: ignoreLogTargets,
               ),
               otlp: VeilidFFIConfigLoggingOtlp(
                 enabled: false,
                 level: VeilidConfigLogLevel.trace,
                 grpcEndpoint: 'localhost:4317',
                 serviceName: 'Veilid Tests',
+                ignoreLogTargets: ignoreLogTargets,
               ),
               api: VeilidFFIConfigLoggingApi(
                 enabled: true,
+                // level: VeilidConfigLogLevel.debug,
                 level: VeilidConfigLogLevel.info,
+                ignoreLogTargets: ignoreLogTargets,
               )));
       platformConfigJson = platformConfig.toJson();
     }
diff --git a/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/test_dht.dart b/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/test_dht.dart
index 795ff83a..dbe462a3 100644
--- a/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/test_dht.dart
+++ b/veilid-flutter/example/integration_test/test_dht.dart
@@ -225,14 +225,15 @@ Future<void> testOpenWriterDHTValue() async {
 }
 
 Future<void> testWatchDHTValues(Stream<VeilidUpdate> updateStream) async {
-  final valueChangeQueue = StreamController<VeilidUpdateValueChange>();
+  final valueChangeQueue =
+      StreamController<VeilidUpdateValueChange>.broadcast();
   final valueChangeSubscription = updateStream.listen((update) {
     if (update is VeilidUpdateValueChange) {
       // print("valuechange: " + update.toString());
       valueChangeQueue.sink.add(update);
     }
   });
-  final valueChangeQueueIterator = StreamIterator(valueChangeQueue.stream);
+  var valueChangeQueueIterator = StreamIterator(valueChangeQueue.stream);
 
   try {
     // Make two routing contexts, one with and one without safety
@@ -262,6 +263,25 @@ Future<void> testWatchDHTValues(Stream<VeilidUpdate> updateStream) async {
       // Now set the subkey and trigger an update
       expect(await rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 3, utf8.encode("BLAH")), isNull);
 
+      // Now we should NOT get an update because the update
+      // is the same as our local copy
+      if (await valueChangeQueueIterator
+          .moveNext()
+          .timeout(const Duration(seconds: 5), onTimeout: () {
+        return false;
+      })) {
+        fail("should not have a change");
+      }
+      valueChangeQueueIterator = StreamIterator(valueChangeQueue.stream);
+
+      // Now set multiple subkeys and trigger an update
+      expect(
+          await [
+            rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 3, utf8.encode("BLAH BLAH")),
+            rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 4, utf8.encode("BZORT"))
+          ].wait,
+          equals([null, null]));
+
       // Wait for the update
       await valueChangeQueueIterator
           .moveNext()
@@ -271,13 +291,10 @@ Future<void> testWatchDHTValues(Stream<VeilidUpdate> updateStream) async {
 
       // Verify the update
       expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.key, equals(rec.key));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.count, equals(0xFFFFFFFE));
+      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.count, equals(0xFFFFFFFD));
       expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.subkeys,
-          equals([ValueSubkeyRange.single(3)]));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value.seq, equals(1));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value.data,
-          equals(utf8.encode("BLAH")));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value.writer, equals(rec.owner));
+          equals([ValueSubkeyRange.make(3, 4)]));
+      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value, isNull);
 
       // Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
       rec = await rcWatch.openDHTRecord(rec.key, writer: rec.ownerKeyPair());
@@ -291,9 +308,13 @@ Future<void> testWatchDHTValues(Stream<VeilidUpdate> updateStream) async {
       // Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
       rec = await rcSet.openDHTRecord(rec.key, writer: rec.ownerKeyPair());
 
-      // Change our subkey
-      expect(await rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 3, utf8.encode("BLAH BLAH BLAH")),
-          isNull);
+      // Now set multiple subkeys and trigger an update
+      expect(
+          await [
+            rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 3, utf8.encode("BLAH BLAH BLAH")),
+            rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 5, utf8.encode("BZORT BZORT"))
+          ].wait,
+          equals([null, null]));
 
       // Wait for the update
       await valueChangeQueueIterator
@@ -302,15 +323,12 @@ Future<void> testWatchDHTValues(Stream<VeilidUpdate> updateStream) async {
         fail("should have a change");
       });
 
-      // Verify the update
+      // Verify the update came back but we don't get a new value because the sequence number is the same
       expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.key, equals(rec.key));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.count, equals(0xFFFFFFFD));
+      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.count, equals(0xFFFFFFFC));
       expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.subkeys,
-          equals([ValueSubkeyRange.single(3)]));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value.seq, equals(2));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value.data,
-          equals(utf8.encode("BLAH BLAH BLAH")));
-      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value.writer, equals(rec.owner));
+          equals([ValueSubkeyRange.single(3), ValueSubkeyRange.single(5)]));
+      expect(valueChangeQueueIterator.current.value, isNull);
 
       // Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
       rec = await rcWatch.openDHTRecord(rec.key, writer: rec.ownerKeyPair());
@@ -324,8 +342,13 @@ Future<void> testWatchDHTValues(Stream<VeilidUpdate> updateStream) async {
       // Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
       rec = await rcSet.openDHTRecord(rec.key, writer: rec.ownerKeyPair());
 
-      // Set the value without a watch
-      expect(await rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 3, utf8.encode("BLAH")), isNull);
+      // Now set multiple subkeys and trigger an update
+      expect(
+          await [
+            rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 3, utf8.encode("BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH")),
+            rcSet.setDHTValue(rec.key, 5, utf8.encode("BZORT BZORT BZORT"))
+          ].wait,
+          equals([null, null]));
 
       // Now we should NOT get an update
       if (await valueChangeQueueIterator
diff --git a/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.dart b/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.dart
index f45cd07e..3aa8f468 100644
--- a/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.dart
+++ b/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.dart
@@ -174,7 +174,7 @@ sealed class VeilidUpdate with _$VeilidUpdate {
     required TypedKey key,
     required List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys,
     required int count,
-    required ValueData value,
+    required ValueData? value,
   }) = VeilidUpdateValueChange;
 
   factory VeilidUpdate.fromJson(dynamic json) =>
diff --git a/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.freezed.dart b/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.freezed.dart
index 4bba1f1d..cd23c8d4 100644
--- a/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.freezed.dart
+++ b/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.freezed.dart
@@ -1360,7 +1360,7 @@ mixin _$VeilidUpdate {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) =>
       throw _privateConstructorUsedError;
@@ -1388,7 +1388,7 @@ mixin _$VeilidUpdate {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) =>
       throw _privateConstructorUsedError;
@@ -1416,7 +1416,7 @@ mixin _$VeilidUpdate {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) =>
@@ -1598,7 +1598,7 @@ class _$VeilidLogImpl implements VeilidLog {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return log(logLevel, message, backtrace);
@@ -1629,7 +1629,7 @@ class _$VeilidLogImpl implements VeilidLog {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return log?.call(logLevel, message, backtrace);
@@ -1660,7 +1660,7 @@ class _$VeilidLogImpl implements VeilidLog {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -1867,7 +1867,7 @@ class _$VeilidAppMessageImpl implements VeilidAppMessage {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return appMessage(message, sender, routeId);
@@ -1898,7 +1898,7 @@ class _$VeilidAppMessageImpl implements VeilidAppMessage {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return appMessage?.call(message, sender, routeId);
@@ -1929,7 +1929,7 @@ class _$VeilidAppMessageImpl implements VeilidAppMessage {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -2146,7 +2146,7 @@ class _$VeilidAppCallImpl implements VeilidAppCall {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return appCall(message, callId, sender, routeId);
@@ -2177,7 +2177,7 @@ class _$VeilidAppCallImpl implements VeilidAppCall {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return appCall?.call(message, callId, sender, routeId);
@@ -2208,7 +2208,7 @@ class _$VeilidAppCallImpl implements VeilidAppCall {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -2421,7 +2421,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateAttachmentImpl implements VeilidUpdateAttachment {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return attachment(state, publicInternetReady, localNetworkReady);
@@ -2452,7 +2452,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateAttachmentImpl implements VeilidUpdateAttachment {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return attachment?.call(state, publicInternetReady, localNetworkReady);
@@ -2483,7 +2483,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateAttachmentImpl implements VeilidUpdateAttachment {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -2702,7 +2702,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateNetworkImpl implements VeilidUpdateNetwork {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return network(started, bpsDown, bpsUp, peers);
@@ -2733,7 +2733,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateNetworkImpl implements VeilidUpdateNetwork {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return network?.call(started, bpsDown, bpsUp, peers);
@@ -2764,7 +2764,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateNetworkImpl implements VeilidUpdateNetwork {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -2958,7 +2958,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateConfigImpl implements VeilidUpdateConfig {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return config(this.config);
@@ -2989,7 +2989,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateConfigImpl implements VeilidUpdateConfig {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return config?.call(this.config);
@@ -3020,7 +3020,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateConfigImpl implements VeilidUpdateConfig {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -3230,7 +3230,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateRouteChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateRouteChange {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return routeChange(deadRoutes, deadRemoteRoutes);
@@ -3261,7 +3261,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateRouteChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateRouteChange {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return routeChange?.call(deadRoutes, deadRemoteRoutes);
@@ -3292,7 +3292,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateRouteChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateRouteChange {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -3386,9 +3386,9 @@ abstract class _$$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImplCopyWith<$Res> {
       {Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
       List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys,
       int count,
-      ValueData value});
+      ValueData? value});
 
-  $ValueDataCopyWith<$Res> get value;
+  $ValueDataCopyWith<$Res>? get value;
 }
 
 /// @nodoc
@@ -3406,7 +3406,7 @@ class __$$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImplCopyWithImpl<$Res>
     Object? key = null,
     Object? subkeys = null,
     Object? count = null,
-    Object? value = null,
+    Object? value = freezed,
   }) {
     return _then(_$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl(
       key: null == key
@@ -3421,17 +3421,21 @@ class __$$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImplCopyWithImpl<$Res>
           ? _value.count
           : count // ignore: cast_nullable_to_non_nullable
               as int,
-      value: null == value
+      value: freezed == value
           ? _value.value
           : value // ignore: cast_nullable_to_non_nullable
-              as ValueData,
+              as ValueData?,
     ));
   }
 
   @override
   @pragma('vm:prefer-inline')
-  $ValueDataCopyWith<$Res> get value {
-    return $ValueDataCopyWith<$Res>(_value.value, (value) {
+  $ValueDataCopyWith<$Res>? get value {
+    if (_value.value == null) {
+      return null;
+    }
+
+    return $ValueDataCopyWith<$Res>(_value.value!, (value) {
       return _then(_value.copyWith(value: value));
     });
   }
@@ -3465,7 +3469,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateValueChange {
   @override
   final int count;
   @override
-  final ValueData value;
+  final ValueData? value;
 
   @JsonKey(name: 'kind')
   final String $type;
@@ -3526,7 +3530,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateValueChange {
             List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)
         routeChange,
     required TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return valueChange(key, subkeys, count, value);
@@ -3557,7 +3561,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateValueChange {
     TResult? Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult? Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
   }) {
     return valueChange?.call(key, subkeys, count, value);
@@ -3588,7 +3592,7 @@ class _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl implements VeilidUpdateValueChange {
     TResult Function(List<String> deadRoutes, List<String> deadRemoteRoutes)?
         routeChange,
     TResult Function(Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
-            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData value)?
+            List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys, int count, ValueData? value)?
         valueChange,
     required TResult orElse(),
   }) {
@@ -3660,7 +3664,7 @@ abstract class VeilidUpdateValueChange implements VeilidUpdate {
       {required final Typed<FixedEncodedString43> key,
       required final List<ValueSubkeyRange> subkeys,
       required final int count,
-      required final ValueData value}) = _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl;
+      required final ValueData? value}) = _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl;
 
   factory VeilidUpdateValueChange.fromJson(Map<String, dynamic> json) =
       _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl.fromJson;
@@ -3668,7 +3672,7 @@ abstract class VeilidUpdateValueChange implements VeilidUpdate {
   Typed<FixedEncodedString43> get key;
   List<ValueSubkeyRange> get subkeys;
   int get count;
-  ValueData get value;
+  ValueData? get value;
   @JsonKey(ignore: true)
   _$$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImplCopyWith<_$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl>
       get copyWith => throw _privateConstructorUsedError;
diff --git a/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.g.dart b/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.g.dart
index 4f454466..11453507 100644
--- a/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.g.dart
+++ b/veilid-flutter/lib/veilid_state.g.dart
@@ -255,7 +255,7 @@ _$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImpl _$$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImplFromJson(
           .map(ValueSubkeyRange.fromJson)
           .toList(),
       count: json['count'] as int,
-      value: ValueData.fromJson(json['value']),
+      value: json['value'] == null ? null : ValueData.fromJson(json['value']),
       $type: json['kind'] as String?,
     );
 
@@ -265,7 +265,7 @@ Map<String, dynamic> _$$VeilidUpdateValueChangeImplToJson(
       'key': instance.key.toJson(),
       'subkeys': instance.subkeys.map((e) => e.toJson()).toList(),
       'count': instance.count,
-      'value': instance.value.toJson(),
+      'value': instance.value?.toJson(),
       'kind': instance.$type,
     };
 
diff --git a/veilid-python/tests/test_dht.py b/veilid-python/tests/test_dht.py
index 5346e229..58447c9e 100644
--- a/veilid-python/tests/test_dht.py
+++ b/veilid-python/tests/test_dht.py
@@ -247,17 +247,27 @@ async def test_watch_dht_values():
         # Now set the subkey and trigger an update
         vd = await rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 3, b"BLAH")
         assert vd == None
+        
+        # Now we should NOT get an update because the update is the same as our local copy
+        update = None
+        try:
+            update = await asyncio.wait_for(value_change_queue.get(), timeout=5)
+        except asyncio.TimeoutError:
+            pass
+        assert update == None
+
+        # Now set multiple subkeys and trigger an update
+        vd = await asyncio.gather(*[rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 3, b"BLAH BLAH"), rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 4, b"BZORT")])
+        assert vd == [None, None]
 
         # Wait for the update
         upd = await asyncio.wait_for(value_change_queue.get(), timeout=5)
 
-        # Verify the update
+        # Verify the update came back but we don't get a new value because the sequence number is the same
         assert upd.detail.key == rec.key
-        assert upd.detail.count == 0xFFFFFFFE
-        assert upd.detail.subkeys == [(3,3)]
-        assert upd.detail.value.seq == 1
-        assert upd.detail.value.data == b"BLAH"
-        assert upd.detail.value.writer == rec.owner
+        assert upd.detail.count == 0xFFFFFFFD
+        assert upd.detail.subkeys == [(3, 4)]
+        assert upd.detail.value == None
 
         # Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
         rec = await rcWatch.open_dht_record(rec.key, rec.owner_key_pair())
@@ -269,20 +279,18 @@ async def test_watch_dht_values():
         # Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
         rec = await rcSet.open_dht_record(rec.key, rec.owner_key_pair())
 
-        # Change our subkey
-        vd = await rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 3, b"BLAH BLAH BLAH")
-        assert vd == None
+        # Now set multiple subkeys and trigger an update
+        vd = await asyncio.gather(*[rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 3, b"BLAH BLAH BLAH"), rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 5, b"BZORT BZORT")])
+        assert vd == [None, None]
 
         # Wait for the update
         upd = await asyncio.wait_for(value_change_queue.get(), timeout=5)
 
-        # Verify the update
+        # Verify the update came back but we don't get a new value because the sequence number is the same
         assert upd.detail.key == rec.key
-        assert upd.detail.count == 0xFFFFFFFD
-        assert upd.detail.subkeys == [(3,3)]
-        assert upd.detail.value.seq == 2
-        assert upd.detail.value.data == b"BLAH BLAH BLAH"
-        assert upd.detail.value.writer == rec.owner
+        assert upd.detail.count == 0xFFFFFFFC
+        assert upd.detail.subkeys == [(3, 3), (5, 5)]
+        assert upd.detail.value == None
 
         # Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
         rec = await rcWatch.open_dht_record(rec.key, rec.owner_key_pair())
@@ -294,9 +302,9 @@ async def test_watch_dht_values():
         # Reopen without closing to change routing context and not lose watch
         rec = await rcSet.open_dht_record(rec.key, rec.owner_key_pair())
 
-        # Set the value without a watch
-        vd = await rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 3, b"BLAH")
-        assert vd == None
+        # Now set multiple subkeys
+        vd = await asyncio.gather(*[rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 3, b"BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH"), rcSet.set_dht_value(rec.key, 5, b"BZORT BZORT BZORT")])
+        assert vd == [None, None]
         
         # Now we should NOT get an update
         update = None
diff --git a/veilid-python/veilid/schema/RecvMessage.json b/veilid-python/veilid/schema/RecvMessage.json
index fe92e9a9..1ee1ea81 100644
--- a/veilid-python/veilid/schema/RecvMessage.json
+++ b/veilid-python/veilid/schema/RecvMessage.json
@@ -2673,8 +2673,7 @@
             "count",
             "key",
             "kind",
-            "subkeys",
-            "value"
+            "subkeys"
           ],
           "properties": {
             "count": {
@@ -2712,7 +2711,14 @@
               }
             },
             "value": {
-              "$ref": "#/definitions/ValueData"
+              "anyOf": [
+                {
+                  "$ref": "#/definitions/ValueData"
+                },
+                {
+                  "type": "null"
+                }
+              ]
             }
           }
         },
diff --git a/veilid-python/veilid/state.py b/veilid-python/veilid/state.py
index df273647..1a86e1be 100644
--- a/veilid-python/veilid/state.py
+++ b/veilid-python/veilid/state.py
@@ -358,9 +358,9 @@ class VeilidValueChange:
     key: TypedKey
     subkeys: list[tuple[ValueSubkey, ValueSubkey]]
     count: int
-    value: ValueData
+    value: Optional[ValueData]
 
-    def __init__(self, key: TypedKey, subkeys: list[tuple[ValueSubkey, ValueSubkey]], count: int, value: ValueData):
+    def __init__(self, key: TypedKey, subkeys: list[tuple[ValueSubkey, ValueSubkey]], count: int, value: Optional[ValueData]):
         self.key = key
         self.subkeys = subkeys
         self.count = count
@@ -373,7 +373,7 @@ class VeilidValueChange:
             TypedKey(j["key"]),
             [(p[0], p[1]) for p in j["subkeys"]],
             j["count"],
-            ValueData.from_json(j["value"]),
+            None if j["value"] is None else ValueData.from_json(j["value"]),
         )