From de31921609382d5322b1d510b729f22eeb3ca570 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: infominer33 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:58:08 -0500 Subject: [PATCH] Create HyperledgerGlobalForum-Microledgers-Edgechains-Hardman.md --- ...alForum-Microledgers-Edgechains-Hardman.md | 1047 +++++++++++++++++ 1 file changed, 1047 insertions(+) create mode 100644 indy-sovrin-evernym/HyperledgerGlobalForum-Microledgers-Edgechains-Hardman.md diff --git a/indy-sovrin-evernym/HyperledgerGlobalForum-Microledgers-Edgechains-Hardman.md b/indy-sovrin-evernym/HyperledgerGlobalForum-Microledgers-Edgechains-Hardman.md new file mode 100644 index 00000000..1baa7291 --- /dev/null +++ b/indy-sovrin-evernym/HyperledgerGlobalForum-Microledgers-Edgechains-Hardman.md @@ -0,0 +1,1047 @@ +# Microledgers and Edge-Chains: A Primer - Daniel Hardman, Evernym + +Evernym’s Chief Architect Daniel Hardman takes the Hyperledger community through Evernym’s work on Microledgers and Edge-Chains Architecture. Attendees will gain insight into the theory, applications and evolution in Hyperledger Indy along with a practical discussion of their potential. + +\ +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK5vd7-b1zA&list=PL0MZ85B_96CGkWnEvdPy5sB4VRcH2XWuP&index=100 + +* [Daniel Hardman, Chief Architect - Evernym](https://hgf18.sched.com/event/G8sN/microledgers-and-edge-chains-a-primer-daniel-hardman-evernym) + +> Daniel Hardman has a quarter century of experience in enterprise software. As a technical director or chief architect, he’s led engineering teams at small startups, an incubator, and a continent-spanning business unit at a Fortune 500 company. He founded a dot com a few years back, serving as CEO and later CTO before selling the business. Daniel designed and personally coded complex scheduling software that runs the biggest supercomputers on the planet. He also worked on big data systems that use natural language processing and machine learning/AI to impute reputation to the entire observable internet. He is a member of Infraguard, has training in cybersecurity, and has spoken at industry conferences such as RSA. Daniel has an MBA plus a master’s degree in computational linguistics. He holds numerous patents and is a prolific blogger. + +## Lightly edited transcript from Youtube. + +Okay, I think we'll go ahead and get started. There are likely to be people trickling in, if they're like I am. If I didn't have to be here speaking I would take my time getting in the next session after lunch feeling a little bit sluggish... but anyway, they'll come in and and we'll already be in the presentation. + +my name is Daniel Hardman hopefully you've if you read about this session you might know a little bit about my background I work with hyper ledger +indie project mostly I'm a maintainer +there and I also work for well so I have +a day job with Evernham and then a side +gig where I work on the technical +governance port of the sovereign +foundation which is closely connected to +the indie project anyway today I'm going +to talk about some concepts that have +been marinating in my mind and in the +minds of some people that I work with +for quite a while not all these ideas +are originally mine I want to give +credit where credit is due lots of other +smart people have been talking and +thinking about this as well I'm just a +spokesman for a lot of other people and +hopefully the title intrigued you a +little bit micro Ledger's and edge +chains I'm going to demystify that and +when you walk away I hope you're gonna +think of this as not so much a super +technical session that you've been to +but instead a session that kind of has +some intriguing ideas for you to think +about later in whatever you're doing so +I'd like to start by taking you on a +little bit of a personal journey I +started working in blockchain two and a +half years ago and when I first became I +guess aware of the basic concepts of how +blockchain worked and so forth I became +really excited about how blockchain had +solved a bunch of problems and who I was +going to go conquer the world with all +this new technology and it was awesome +and that was a I lasted in that phase of +my acquaintance with blockchain for I +don't know several months but I start +to encounter practical problems with +some of the blockchain stuff I was doing +and I hope as I described the rest of +this arc you'll smile a little bit to +yourselves and say yeah I've kind of +been through the same thing so you know +after after my in a way this is kind of +like the Gartner hype cycle you know +there's the the spike of excitement and +then the trough of disillusionment so I +kind of went through learning about some +of the performance and scaling issues +that we had to deal with and some of the +complexity and then I started to realize +that putting data on the blockchain had +certain repercussions that I didn't +always want to deal with and that there +needed to be some very careful thought +about how we encrypted data and then I +realized encrypting it wasn't enough it +just plain shouldn't be there at all and +so hopefully you guys are recognizing +these kinds of patterns in your own +thinking here and then I got into the +whole all regulatory compliance of gdpr +thing and gee this is getting harder and +harder and then I and several of my +companions discovered this notion of +micro Ledger's and we feel like it was +kind of an aha moment for us so I'll +explain what micro Ledger's are and I +think you'll see how that's relevant to +this arc when I'm done but let me just +point out that that same kind of arc +that I just described in my own thinking +we're seeing unfold in lots of different +ways in the whole block chain space all +of the things on this list here are +examples of projects where somebody has +fought hard about the original +blockchain paradigm and tweaked +something in an interesting way because +of that same arc and you know the tweaks +are different plasma is about taking +smart contracts off the blockchain +triple signed receipts is about +preserving confidence in data but not +having to keep a full history even +though you have a strong proof that +you're at the right state anyway they +all +different things up there and if you +don't know about all those I didn't know +about all of them either until I went +and researched this talk and I was +looking for patterns I knew about some +of them and I found some others there +but the point is that I think the whole +industry is going through a maturation +phase where we're realizing that there's +certain aspects of what blockchain can +do that we love and there's other +aspects of what blockchain gives us that +we don't love so much and we're trying +to kind of wrestle against those +constraints now these are the two things +that I think these arcs all have in +common mine and and the things on the +previous slide +they're all trying to do less with the +central big blockchain in some creative +way so that they can keep the special +value out of the blockchain but not have +some of its downsides right okay so I +want to just point out something I went +and looked just for fun I went and +looked up architecture diagrams with +Google I was looking for old +client-server architecture diagrams okay +and these are just three that I picked +at random out of the Google image search +results list you see that client-server +is kind of this old paradigm where we +have this notion of a centralized thing +right and client-server equals bad right +we've been down that road we don't like +that anymore but here's what's +interesting I also went and searched for +some architecture diagrams about +blockchain and some blockchain supposed +to be highly decentralized and lo and +behold there are lots and lots of +evidence in these diagrams that +blockchain is actually it just almost +the exact same thing now there's some +things about blockchain that are +different I'm not arguing that they're +identical but the point is there is this +phenomenon +sometimes that blockchain has been used +in a way that's far more centralized +than we like to admit yes there are +nodes that spread the load around and +yes the nodes create this notion of +diverse or I mean diffuse trust and yet +all of those nodes can be treated as one +bundle in the middle and in fact +in a lot of architecture diagrams that +you see in presentations at this +conference and any other conference you +will see a little graphic that +represents the blockchain and a bunch of +arrows coming to it from all over the +place and what's that that's +centralization okay so we don't +necessarily need the blockchain for +everything that we think we need it for +the taluk back in April I'll let you +read that quote there well actually I'm +going to read it because it's such a +good one block chains are far less +efficient computer and database than +technologies that have existed for over +40 years +efficiency is not what block chains are +built for if you actually go and look up +that quote he does a comparison of how +much it costs to do certain kinds of +computations on aetherium versus AWS and +it's about a million to one difference +in efficiency and then founder of +liquidity network in June this is a +really good quote - bottom line is this +notion you know what why would you need +a mediator if you're actually agreeing +with each other now there's an answer to +that question but there's also some that +that question exposes some interesting +things to think about so I think smart +people in the industry are starting to +question some basic assumptions and +here's here's my picture of an +architecture that's centralized in +blockchain oriented you got the +blockchain in the middle here and you +got the arrows coming to it right this +is how I was thinking about my own +particular problem which was the +identity management relationship +management problem that's at the core of +identity when I first came into this +world and if you see we've got two +parties that each have a relationship +and want to trust each other we have +Alice we have Bob and Alice needs to +know some things about her view of this +relationship and she also needs to know +some things about Bob's view of the +relationship okay and these two views of +the world +what's symmetrical and complimentary but +they're using the blockchain in the +middle as the trusted intermediary and +like I said this view of the world sort +of works but it became it chafed on me +and it became increasingly uncomfortable +as I learned some of the drawbacks and +challenges to it so here's what I +evolved to and this is what I want to +talk to you about is the micro ledger +notion so in this notion you still have +a blockchain and blockchain does have +relevance it's highly relevant but it's +not used for the main it's not the main +mediator of the relationship between +Alice and Bob Alice and Bob talk to each +other directly and then they have this +kind of back-channel thing that they can +use to interact with the blockchain to +the extent that they need to and I'm +gonna talk about what they really need +the blockchain for but it's not as much +as we thought at least as much as I +thought to begin with so when you have +this kind of a relationship what you +have is two parties that are kind of at +the edge of the old diagram the instead +of the thing that's in the middle you +have the things that are at the edges +okay and these things at the edge are +talking to each other and this is how I +get the concept of an edge chain that's +where that word in the title of the +presentation comes from is the notion +that you can have some of the same +characteristics of a blockchain you can +have high trust and tamper resistance +and diffuse patterns of communication +and so forth but you don't have the +blockchain sitting in the middle of it +it's it's all happening out at the edges +okay so this evolves even further if you +have this person Alice having +relationships with multiple people she +continues to have these all as kind of +lateral side relationships she doesn't +have them through the blockchain now you +might be saying well wait a minute if +you take the blockchain and all those +big arrows out what is it even useful +for well in my case it's useful for +certain +problems that require external trust so +for example there has to be a place +where I can announce that a credential +upon which identity is based has been +revoked and the world needs to test for +that condition when they're seeing +credentials presented I know that +there's people out here who aren't in +the identity space +I think there's analogs to this in in +non identity world too there's certain +things that you need to consult the +blockchain for but the main things that +aren't on this list are things like +talking to each other +storing things doing computation +interacting none of that stuff has to go +through smart contracts or any of that +it just has to have a few very small +things that make this possible so +besides revoking credentials in the +identity space you have to be able to +revoke a device if you leave your phone +in on the backseat of an uber you need +to be able to quickly say don't let +anybody use that phone to impersonate me +you need to be able to discover parties +that are intending to be public +you need a secret rendezvous spot so if +you think of secret agents that you know +they're heading off into enemy territory +and they agree that if if they're not +back by such-and-such a time then +they're going to meet in the square at +midnight or whatever well you can use a +blockchain kind of like that as will +agree that will rendezvous on the +blockchain if we lose track of one +another or have to repair a relationship +and we can't do it by direct +conversation and it turns out that +Merkel proofs of state integrity between +these two parties can be relevant now +this last one is where I get the name +micro ledger for this talk and that is +basically the way that these two parties +interact with each other has to have +some characteristics of prove ability +and tamper evidence even though it's not +on the main blockchain and you can do +that by doing some very simple well it's +not very simple it's simple compared to +other stuff crypto and so forth on your +local hard drive and you know when you +interact with the other +passing them Merkel proof of state +having them check it against what they +have you end up knowing with confidence +that both of you have the same thing and +and you haven't drifted or +misinterpreted one another so you end up +basically having a tiny little ledger on +your machine for the relationship Alice +would have one for the relationship she +has with Bob I'm talking tiny I'm +talking 5k 10k little tiny files they're +not massive they don't last necessarily +forever they don't store any significant +amounts of information but they just +have an orderly sequence of hashes that +show how state has evolved that's the +micro ledger concept so after we started +playing with this idea I started to see +things a little bit different this is my +journey again but I thought instead of +it being kind of a time sequence I saw +it as a continuum of centralization and +I really think that's where my mental +journey took me is I started out +thinking blockchain was cool and I'm +going to be decentralized but I wasn't +really very decentralized in my thinking +and took me a long time to get there you +know I started kind of over with put it +all in the blockchain which isn't so far +away from traditional client-server ok +then you start seeing people talking +about sub chains and side chains and +things like that that's an example of +moving farther to the right on the +continuum and then you hear people +talking about well just anchor it on the +blockchain now we're starting to get +pretty far over to the towards the right +if you go all the way over to the right +you have a pure edge chain where you +really don't need the blockchain at all +now I don't think I'm gonna write any +software that looks completely at that +end of the continuum +I think the blockchain introduces some +characteristics of trust that I really +need but I think I can get pretty far +over here get all the benefits from +blockchain that I really care about but +not have hardly any of the drawbacks or +complications and the only price is +complexity darn it +okay so I put up here on this picture +also I have gaps right here and edge +chain protocols when I first started +exploring this notion of the edge chain +I was calling the thing that we were +building adapt because it's a +decentralized app of course but I +realized that what the industry is +calling adapt is actually pretty far +over to this side because it's typically +running everything through a smart +contract that does centralize +computation and you can there are adapts +that aren't that way so the DAP thing +moves over towards the right there are +some gaps that get maybe almost this far +but you you can take it all the way over +here and I think if you go way over to +the right side it's not really fair to +call that adapt because it's pretty +different from what the industry thinks +adapt is and I'm gonna give you some +examples here in just a minute so just +for kicks I'm gonna introduce a new word +to you +because this is why I'm excited about +the right end of that continuum I think +that the things on the right end of that +continuum have this characteristic this +is a big word you know a $24.00 word but +it tell telly emergent so if you're +familiar with the word teleology or T +Liana me this has the notion that you +have order from chaos okay but it's not +order that's decreed by some central +party it's order that arises +spontaneously T Liana me is used in +discussions about evolution and biology +and how a very complex ecosystem can +manifest really sophisticated patterns +of behavior even though there's not +anybody out there telling the Zebras +which direction to run when the Lions +chase them and so you may have also +heard the word chaotic before and you +may have run into the notion of Adam +Smith's invisible hand in the economy +it's the notion that you give a bunch of +independent actors the right incentives +and lo and behold the free market causes +an interesting dynamic to emerge that's +useful and that's what I think is the +true characteristic at the far right +side is that you give independent agents +the ability to interact and these agents +find useful ways to interact according +to a protocol so this is just a little +compare and contrast I think I'm gonna +skip over this suffice it to say that +daps and edge chains have a lot in +common but I think there's some +interesting differences and I'll maybe +during Q&A; we can come back to this +slide you have questions about it but +let me now actually give you some +examples of what I'm talking about +when you define an edge chain protocol +you have to answer these four questions +what are the roles in my protocol what +types of messages do we exchange what +stage or sequencing rules apply and how +our trust and incentives managed so +here's a really familiar example okay no +tech involved how do you buy a house +okay what are the roles in buying a +house well you have a buyer and a seller +and the realtor for the buyer and the +realtor for the seller you have a home +inspector you have a title company these +are roles and by the way buying a house +is a protocol right you can't just go +order a title insurance on some +arbitrary home because that would be out +of order for the it's not the sequence +that you have to start by doing step one +and then you go to step two and then you +go to step three right and the parties +in this interaction have +responsibilities they can do certain +things and not other things okay +so the kinds of messages that get +exchanged in this protocol well we have +an offer to buy a counteroffer an +acceptance or rejection a home report a +title search these are messages okay +what are the state rules that apply well +this is an example state machine I drew +you start by negotiating and you can go +round and round in circles in +negotiating eventually you exit the +negotiating phase +you're in the preparing phase where you +order a title search and a home report +and all these things and anyway you end +up consummating the deal or not +consummating it but that is an edge +protocol why is it an edge protocol +there's no blockchain involved right +it's people out at the edge but there's +a hundred thousand things like this +ordering a hamburger is a protocol right +you can't just walk up to somebody and +say here's seven twenty five you have to +walk up to him and say I want number +three on the menu would then give him +725 after they ask you whether you want +it to be is that to go or not to go +right there's this whole protocol +involved in that that we all know so the +reason I'm harping on this is because +all kinds of business problems are +solved by protocols all the time and in +fact they're mostly edge protocols and +that's a cool thing if you can just hook +them up to blockchain for just the parts +that you need them for and not all of it +the the weight of what you're building +goes way down so here's a simple edge +protocol that's techy this one is one +that's relevant to the identity space +this is the trust ping protocol and in +Indy there is a hype which is like an +RFC about how you ping another person +you have their D ID for them that's +their identity their identifier excuse +me and given that identifier you should +be able to reach out and talk to that +person so how do you do it +and according to the whole indie +technology should be able to do it no +matter what transport you're used to +send messages whether it's HTTP or mail +or Bluetooth or whatever and you should +know some things when you engage in this +trust pink about whether the person on +the other side is trustworthy and how +much trust might have been eroded by the +kind of mechanisms you used in between +you and stuff like that so there's a +hype about that you can see the roles +the ping ER and the ping e and the +message types let me give you a quick +demo of this protocol what I have here +I'm gonna start up an indie agent and +that agent is going to be listening on +email and I'm going to talk to it by +email and I'm gonna use the trust ping +protocol to to interact with it so this +is the yeah this is a trust ping +protocol documentation and the trust +ping documentation says that if I want +to ping somebody this is the kind of +JSON message I need to send it so I'm +gonna send it one let's go over here to +my email and I'll bring up my little +trust ping nothing up my sleeve here's +the the JSON that I'm sending which is +just a direct copy and paste out of this +pipe here so that's the that's the stuff +that I sent and let's see +message was sent that's good now what we +got to see is if the message is going to +come back there we go so the agent on +the other side pinged me back and let's +see what it sent me it sent me a name +style message except it's not fully +encrypted right now I turned off the +encryption this is the JSON that I got +back it says hi from indie agent so I've +just engaged in a protocol here now what +does blockchain add to this I could do +this entirely without blockchain but +there's some things I wouldn't have I +wouldn't have confidence in the other +sender somebody could sit in between me +in this protocol and mess with my mind +right be a man-in-the-middle so most of +the protocol is not modified but by +adding a little bit of blockchain pixie +dust I'll call it I can increase the +trust behind this protocol and and +that's the kind of thing that I'm seeing +over and over again as I get my head +wrapped +around this paradigm is you start with a +paradigm that's really not very +blockchain heavy and then you say okay +what are the things that's that's +wonderful about blockchain that I need +to add into this and how can I do it as +light as possible okay so on to the next +thing here +Tic Tac Toe we could also play +tic-tac-toe I'm gonna wait and see if I +have enough time I'll do a demo of +tic-tac-toe if you feel like it later +but anyway I have a demo of that if you +want to this one was not +there's no blockchain goodness on this +this is all the way to the complete +right side is being a pure hedge +protocol because you don't need a +blockchain to play tic-tac-toe okay this +is a more serious one what if you want +to manage a relationship so Alice and +Bob live across the world they use +complicated complicated technologies +each of them has different technologies +one of them has a laptop and a cell +phone and the other one has a desktop +computer at work and two cell phones and +something in the cloud and they want to +talk to each other and there's different +pieces of software running on all these +different things at different version +levels and all this kind of stuff how +does Alice tell Bob hey you shouldn't +accept any messages anymore from my old +cell phone that I just sent to the +recycling I think they told me they were +gonna wipe the hard drive on it but I +just don't trust I'm gonna tell Bob not +to do that you know how do you how does +Alice say hey I upgraded my own world +here and I've got a new device and now +if I send messages from that device you +should trust them +how does Alice say I'm gonna rotate my +keys +all of these are concerns of managing a +relationship and you need a protocol to +manage a relationship and guess what +it's mostly an edge protocol so this is +a more serious one that matters has +pretty high stakes and I've been working +on a method to describe how di DS can be +created and the did Docs associated with +those di DS can be shared and there's +you can see the the roles here are the +participants in the relationship and +there's some message types that are +described here there's actually a did +method spec draft and I'll show that to +you really briefly here and you can go +look it up yourself +later if you want to I'll give you the +URL and you can go read it but anyway +there's this whole spec behind this and +so this one is the thing that has caused +I think the most ruminating on the +concept of a micro ledger because the +micro ledger as a persistence mechanism +could provide high trust to back the did +method that I'm mentioning here +let me go on to another one that's maybe +a little bit more interesting so this is +just an imaginary one but I think I'd +love if somebody in the audience wants +to build this I'd be super excited and I +would buy your app a megaphone protocol +what I'd like is something where if I'm +sitting on the beach in Indonesia and a +tsunami happens I can grab my phone and +push a button and say run a tsunamis +coming and my phone contacts all the +phones all around the resort where I'm +staying which in turn contact all the +phone's a mile inland and everybody +starts running not just the people who +can see the wave would that be cool I +want basically a virtual megaphone but +here's a why do I need blockchain +there's a really good answer to this I +can't build this right now because if +everybody had a real megaphone in real +life you'd have problems with people +using it irresponsibly wouldn't you so +there's a trust problem I can use +blockchain to require people to put +stake or put their identity in escrow +against their responsible behavior so +that a person can say look when it's a +life-or-death situation I need an EpiPen +right now I'm willing to you know have a +hundred dollars on the line or I'm +willing to have my identity disclosed if +I am shown to use that irresponsibly and +that protocol can hook back to the +blockchain as a basis for that trust but +most of everything that's happening is +all out on the edge okay and you can see +some of the other ones you know my child +is lost at Disneyland or I'm desperate +to get on this plane as somebody in this +line willing to send me to sell me their +plane ticket 4000 euros any of these +kinds of things could be done with this +kind of a protocol and you would just +need peer-to-peer communication in your +app or you could have the app go back to +the cloud and talk to other apps through +the cloud if you needed to that would be +more centralized but anyway there's some +roles in this a speaker a listener and a +relay so you could have an app and a +person could talk through your app to +another phone that was close to you and +so the word would spread right if +anybody's interested there's a link to +the concept doc when you download the +slides you can go read more about that +protocol so here's my suggestion to you +I hope that I haven't gone too too deep +I've tried to stay really high-level and +I hope that I've been general enough +that even if you're not in the Indy +space the identity space you're thinking +a little bit to yourself yeah maybe +there's some ways that I'm taking for +granted that we need to use the +blockchain for something and maybe I +shouldn't +maybe I should think from the other +direction instead start thinking about +the problem as an edge protocol problem +and then say how do I sprinkle the the +magic pixie dust a blockchain just +enough to get the properties of trust or +the constraints that I need and what +I've found is that this is a very +liberating experience two and a half +years in a lot of the problems that I +initially thought were really yucky I'm +now thinking well if I flip it on its +head I can get what I need to and I +don't have the performance problem or I +don't have the scaling problem or I +don't have the centralization and trust +problem or the regulatory problem so I +want to encourage you to do that think +in terms of the edge with a blockchain +as a useful foundation that you can +refer to but not necessarily as the +place where it all happens you don't +have to compute everything in a smart +contract and you don't have to and if +you say well I don't know how to do that +there are some problems that you must +use +blockchain for but I'm just saying use +it wisely and not just peanut butter +spread it on everything and then I would +love to get some people here to work +with me on this peer did method I think +it's a very high value for the identity +space that's one specific to my area of +expertise so with that I'll go back and +demo something if you want or we can go +into QA I think we got about ten minutes +left which is good I was trying hard to +not go till the very last second well it +doesn't necessarily have to be a person +but some entity on the edge yeah and I'm +really using the term edge of course is +really vague but what I mean by it +mostly is it's not the thing in the +center of the architecture diagram okay +and then the second question the concept +of the micro ledger is there any concept +of persisting the final values of the +micro ledger onto a blockchain yeah so +this is if I go back to let's see the +notion of anchoring something on a +blockchain a number of people in +industry are exploring different ways to +do that and one of the things you could +anchor on a blockchain is a micro ledger +so if you needed to prove for example to +a third party let's say Alice and Bob +are interacting and it's it's a private +personal relationship but let's say Bob +doesn't fully trust Alice and maybe he's +afraid that alice is gonna steal all of +his cool music for his next album even +because he's been sharing it with her so +he goes and he anchors some things on +the blockchain to provide evidence so +that if anybody ever you know if there's +ever an argument there's a third party +that's a witness that kind of a thing +and there's other kinds of use cases +like that too +hi so obviously it's a communication +protocol so I'm wondering if there was +any thoughts about communication +recording or if it could be useful in +any way I know there have been papers +for TLS communication recording but +obviously it's not easy to do at this +point with TLS and HTTPS so is there any +ideas about communication recording +between the agents or da DS and how it +could be possibly useful so that's an +interesting question I used to work at +Blue Coat which makes a line of products +actually blue coats been acquired by +Symantec so if you look this up now +online you're gonna have to look under +Symantec but anyway blue coat makes a +made a product called an SSL visibility +appliance and what it is is a +deliberately constructed +man-in-the-middle attack on a TLS +session so an enterprise does some fancy +magic with certificates to make it so +that when you inside the enterprise talk +to somebody outside the enterprise that +appliance catches the traffic and it man +in the Middle's both of you neither side +can tell that there's this thing in the +middle and the whole point of it is make +the TLS channel visible so that the +enterprise can look for malware that's +coming into the environment and stuff +like that so where I'm going with this +is that same kind of technique could be +used in agent to agent communication +however you would have to get the +consent of both ends of the conversation +you don't have the ability like you do +in an enterprise to simply say well +every browser in our enterprise is going +to accept this certificate authority +therefore nobody's going to get any +warnings when they click and and stuff +like that so self sovereign identity +technologies provide a protection +against that kind of sniffing happening +invisibly but it could be done and the +old the other thing I was going to say +is there's also a hype +a proposal about message tracing this is +cooperative voluntary message tracing +where people are trying to troubleshoot +a complex interaction and they say hey +please tell me when you get this message +and forward it on so that I can see +what's happening parties don't have to +follow it and but it's somewhat related +to recording so I I guess I can only +think of two those two comments about +the recording concept maybe we can talk +some more after Danny I actually have a +follow-up question and what what +happened here so I'm sure you're +familiar with signal in signal low using +a double ratchet it's right in Triple D +filmin and they create that end-to-end +encryption so how does this really +different when it comes to peer-to-peer +and then just creating that encryption +because you just mentioned that if +you're going to man in the middle attack +I'm quite familiar with what Bluecoat +does I work at Symantec as well so you +have access to the private key you are +able to record a session and then you're +able to replay it +so basically acting as a proxy so how +does this does not apply in this +scenario because if I'm able to actually +sit in between let's say I hold the +network and then I compromise one of the +parties then this is basically just a +broken channel well first of all indie +communication there's a this has not +been implemented but the hype has been +accepted is adopting signals double +ratchet algorithm so forward secrecy and +so forth is a property of the +communication channel the same way it +would be with signal the did method spec +that I talked about here one of the key +characteristics that it has is that when +you created did you must create it by +deriving it from the public key of a key +pair that exists and the reason that +that requirement exists is because you +don't want if you had it if you did well +let me take you down a different path if +if you started a D ID as just like let's +say some UUID and then later you +associated it with keys what could +happen is you could start it and a +person who's proactive and malicious +could notice what your D ID is +but you haven't asserted keys and jump +in and create the kind of man in a +middle situation that we're really +worried about here but because DIDS +require you to derive the thing from the +key the the did value from the key there +is no point in time where the creator of +the did is vulnerable to the man in the +middle attack that's only a partial +answer to your question let's talk about +it after yeah I had yet another +follow-up on this thread so the ietf has +a existing internet standard called the +host identity protocol and it does +exactly the same thing the intention +there is because right now in networks +there's the IP address is the identity +but this is not verifiable so they made +this protocol with the intention that it +existed to be compatible with the +Internet's tcp/ip stack so there is no +tie to and etherion network or a hyper +ledger implementation it's just part of +the general Internet can you give me +some context as to why this is existing +separate from that and we don't just use +the host identity protocol existing on +the internet already so that's a great +question there's several different +answers that are all kind of related +that kind of add up the first thing is +that this communication mechanism has to +work on things besides the Internet +so not everything has IP addresses and +still we have to be able to communicate +we certainly live in a highly IP centric +world but there's plenty of use cases +that are outside that the second thing +is that like with certificates my +understanding of the host identity +technology is that it focuses on servers +now of course it could be used for +clients and stuff too but TLS in general +even though it has +the option of identifying both parties +is almost a hundred percent used to +identify only the server side of an +interaction so when you want to identify +the client side what do you do you have +this great channel but you don't use +certificates you have an entirely +different mechanism which is +browser-based sessions and cookies and +all this other stuff to identify the +other party you log in you present some +credentials and I think the same kind of +phenomenon maybe is undermining some of +the value of that protocol where it's +it's going to be applied whether the +protocol is written that way or not it's +going to be applied just to identify +things that have a permanent presence +does it does it work for mobile phones +that are changing IP addresses +constantly and that are refreshing their +software and all that other stuff I +don't know enough to know maybe we can +can you share a link with me or +something and I'll go learn some more +about it +state channels are on my list of we're +right here +well state channels yeah the state +channels are an example of this kind of +thinking yeah I have one question +concerning the etch chain protocols as I +understood you you suggest we make small +protocols and different apps but what +when I want to glue them together +because they together build higher-level +protocols would I then try to make the +glue in the blockchain so things that +those protocols need store it there or +would I define let's say super H J chain +protocol +well yeah protocols are one of those +things that can be understood at there's +there's lower level ones and higher +level ones just like there's the OSI +stack and so forth in networking and you +can combine logical entities into bigger +constructs to make higher-level +protocols something that you said kind +of gets at this slide that I skipped +over one of the things that's different +between DAPs and edge chain protocols is +that edge chain protocols there there's +no set of apps that you have to have you +just need to have software that is +capable of playing all of the roles in +your protocol and it could be written by +ten different people and there could be +ten different providers of one of the +roles if you wanted right so think about +like buying a house we don't have only +one place that you go to get all the the +actors in the buy a house protocol and +yet DAPs are typically written where you +write a DAP that implements the whole +thing and so that's a little bit of a +paradigm shift +yeah yeah yeah +theirs doesn't have to be implemented on +server so it's not exactly micro +services but it's like that in the sense +that it's a bunch of little granular +things hi thanks this was really +interesting I was going to offer a bit +of nitpicking for the megaphone protocol +I think if you don't take in +consideration economic pressure +I think the protocol probably fall apart +because some people will be in such +situations that they'll be willing to +trade what they consider their important +identity to spam people nearby and +there'll be markets that will probably +show up saying hey if you can if you do +this for us we'll give you some money +and people might burn through their +identity because they don't see the +value of it or maybe they will try and +stack up multiple identities as much as +they can +obviously we we would expect this the +product or the system the overall +underlying self sovereign identity +system not to allow that but I think if +you don't count factor in economic +pressures especially for those of us who +are very poor like you won't be able to +expect some of the ways that the +protocol will be manipulated +that's good comment the the concept +document includes the notion that +megaphones have a volume and you can +select the volume if you say look I'm +tired and hungry and I'm a mom in an +airport and I have a baby and I need to +change the baby's diaper and I forgot a +diaper that's not a life-threatening +crisis so you don't need +life-threatening volume and so there's +probably different staking for different +levels of volume but I think there's +still you're right that there's +potential for abuse which is maybe one +of the reasons that nobody's been +working on it yet +okay well I think we should declare the +the session over and I'll be up here if +anybody wants to ask more questions a +couple of you asked me questions that I +want to get some more information about +if you just come and talk to me that'd +be great and thanks for your attention I +appreciate it